Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 31 total)
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  • #495 Reply

    This would require Internet, though, right? Say you have 1000 coins. A vendor has an object you want to purchase, which costs 10 coins. When the transaction is concluded, in his ledger it will say you payed him 10 coins, and in your ledger it will now say 1000-10=990 coins. The benefit of the blockchain is you have this global network that confirms the transaction is real and actually happened due to the public-private key signing of the transaction. However, if you only were to have two nodes in the network, the blockchain stops working. Also, in the blockchain, there is only ONE blockchain, which means if you have no connection you cannot make a transaction. Meanwhile the benefit of BeeChat is you can use it without connection.

    So, we must develop a cryptocurrency concept that can work without an Internet connection.

    This cryptocurrency needs prevents double spending and allow for real peer-to-peer transactions. What is meant by peer-to-peer in this context is directly from device to device; as it works currently with BeeChat.
    Not as with TCP/IP, where even if two smartphones are 1 meter apart from each other it needs to go to the ISP before reaching the destination.

    This can be partly achieved by having Bitcoin Lightning Wallets operating through BeeChat. However, eventually, the value needs to be broadcasted to the network for it to be viable. That last part is the problem we need to fix.

    #496 Reply

    I want to emphasize this: I don’t think a blockchain is required for peer-to-peer transactions where the confirmation is done over physical goods. This means instead of running the entire system over one blockchain, each user will be running their own fork of barcode-coin core. Only in a transaction will it become necessary to sync two forks.

    Let’s go through your example. I have 1000 coins and the vendor has an object that costs 10 coins. Before we proceed, we need to revisit what these coins are mined out of and what is their essential use.

    A coin is mined as a result of a successful transaction. Mind you, a coin can’t be mined by purchasing a good with a coin, that will result in generating coins out of thin air. This successful transaction has to be a barter. One coin is given to each vendor, with transaction information embedded (could be the barcode), along with information regarding the purchasing and the selling parties. These can all be represented numerically. In the end we have two sister coins: Party A has a coin that contains the numerically embedded information of (I have bartered to Party B for item with barcode #XXXXXXXX at this time and date), and Party B has the exact opposite of the same coin.

    1000 coins in your example could for example be made out of 300 coins from transactions with Party A, 200 coins from Party B, 250 coins from Party C and 250 coins from Party D. The “blockchain”, or the verification of the system over BeeChat would go on as follows:

    1- I radio broadcast to Party A. Party A broadcasts back to me, verifying 300 coins.
    2- Party A broadcasts to Party B. Party B broadcasts back to Party A, who then broadcasts back to me.
    3- This chain broadcast goes on and on until the chain returns to the original broadcaster, me.

    When the broadcast cycle is complete and the entire coins are verified from the transacting parties, I have 1000 coins to spend. HOWEVER

    Depending on the reputation of any party, the vendor may choose to select its tender, say 10 coins from Party C specifically. Why?

    The reputation is linked to amount of coins from one party in the circulation. If Party C is careful in its transactions, does careful check of the person buying goods from it, sells to users that are active users of BeeChat and not to users who log in to acquire one item and disappear, the Party C coins will have the most updated verification from the broadcast chain.

    In this case, Party C may have the verification date of today, where Party B coins may have a verification date of 1 month earlier. I can still make transactions using Party B coins, but the delay of verifications means that the people are not always up checking their BeeChat which could mean problems if I don’t get satisfactory results from my barter or purchase.

    Does it make sense?

    #500 Reply

    From what I understand, that reputation system could centralize everything, as people would only trust the high reputation sources, and not the newer, perhaps more honest sources.

    In terms of payments, it makes sense to implement it on BeeChat. However at this stage I can’t see a way of actually doing it. Maybe we could implement a Gossip protocol such as the one below. I’m curious to know what you think.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by 3iWEvuKEag.
    #502 Reply

    The gossip protocol sounds exactly like what I have in mind. I’ve heard about hashgraph, and I’ve heard its creator was very protective about keeping it proprietary. If we can borrow the gossip protocol, there are tonnes of graph theory related ideas I can think of implementing.

    Regarding the centralization, I disagree. You see, the centralization as we’ve come to learn from the Bitcoin and altcoin examples is caused by the entry of regular users who are clueless about how to set up a USB wallet, so they trust places like Coinbase to keep their coins in. This is a very bad precedent and it is not rewarding positive user contributions.

    A new system requires a level of trust to maintain users and keep more coming. What you’ve called centralization is from my perspective, earned trust.

    There are two methods of gathering barcode coins:
    1- Generate coins via transactions. More transactions, more coins you generate.
    2- Accumulate coins via selling goods. This is where the trust factor starts showing its true effect, because the selling party needs to have faith in the future purchasing ability of the newly acquired coins.

    A positive user behavior for a functioning decentralized economy would be:
    – to complete and verify transactions as quickly as possible
    – to engage in the widest array of userbase so swapping items between users becomes easier
    – maintain a level of quality in the items sold, and be reachable
    – maintain a steady supply of stocks to build supply chains

    Both in the model I’ve described, and the gossip model, the priority of a user is deduced from the timestamp of the latest transaction. It means the user is active, the coins the user generates are circulating and there is an economy being scaled from these economies based on trust.

    The selection of one user’s coin over the other is not very different from preference of one currency in todays’s world over the other for an international trade. The de-facto international trade currency is USD, because the active circulation of USD in the international markets makes it easier for banks to set up letters of credit that have tangibles that can be valued in USD (to be sold to international or local parties in terms of insolvency) as collateral. However, using USD is not necessary in a local market, because the steps in maintaining cash flow for small amounts of currency is too tedious and needs more banks and exchange stops compared to keeping the currency in the form of the local one.

    In other terms, what you’ve described as centralization, is in reality, globalization. This is necessary for the expansion of a BeeChat economy.

    This wouldn’t be necessary if BeeChat was a community based application where everyone knew each other and trusted each other, because the trust issue would already have been solved. There could be one coin and it would be the end. How will you do this where the users are anonymous?

    Simple. By rewarding the user who keeps a tidy account of its transactions, selling to active members of BeeChat community, selling continuously and acting as an exchange mechanism. The system rewards the good merchant.

    This isn’t similar to the Petrodollar. USD is being propped up against infinite debt because everyone keeps using the Petrodollar under international pressure. A transaction based economy can’t be propped up because the collateral is fixed to a static address and barcoded product – there can’t be coins printed without backing.

    The factors in consideration are:
    Transaction amount vs logistics cost
    Repeated Transactions vs standalone
    Added value or fixed value

    These require seperate threads on their own, but the idea is to expand an economy where the value of one coin is tangible enough to have people trading with each other so that the trust keeps trickling down. Instead of hoarding coins – which would devalue them because they are not being circulated and being verified by transactions, generate more coins and spend away.

    #504 Reply

    I’ve been giving this quite a lot of thought. Here are my 2 cents:

    1- Generate coins via transactions. More transactions, more coins you generate.

    One could also get two BeeChat devices and sell to themselves to generate a volume of transactions. The system would register it as two separate users, thus in your model, provide coins to one person almost at an unlimited amount. This particular issue happens right now with some Cryptocurrency Exchanges and even some coins, where the developers set up fake accounts exchanging random amounts of currency to each other, this way places like Coinmarketcap think a lot of people are trading there, but in reality it’s just bots.

    I did some more digging and found a more open, more advanced and working version of a cryptocurrency we could implement, which has solved all of these problems already.

    It’s called NANO. From what I have read (and I am currently setting up a node to check compatibility) it would work perfectly with BeeChat.
    I’m curious as what you think about this.

    Here are the best videos on it I could find: (the explainer video on their site)

    #510 Reply

    From what I can gather after watching the clip, NANO appears to be a more efficient Bitcoin that runs on distributed computing. If I’m not mistaken, nodes are hubs of centralization that profit the node’s owner and I’m not sure if any of the blockchain proof of work based coins would work without internet, especially when they require significant computing power to mine and need more bandwidth for block transfers.

    One could also get two BeeChat devices and sell to themselves to generate a volume of transactions. The system would register it as two separate users, thus in your model, provide coins to one person almost at an unlimited amount.

    I’ve mentioned before that a way to counter this would be to limit coin generation to transactions between unique addresses, and to supply chain. Let’s consider an attack from two crooked users.

    For n BeeChat enabled devices they own, they are capable of generating n(n-1)/2 coin. However, this can happen uniquely only once, and each coin that will be tied to one BeeChat device will be n-1. For a 4 device setup, this attack will end at 6 coins generated in total.

    Worst case scenario. Assuming the attackers are sitting on top of a BeeChat parts factory, and they wait and wait and wait so they set up 1000 BeeChats ready to strike. They’re going to do a one-hit job, have set up a brute force algorithm that will generate 1000*999/2 coins. A quick way to detect and flush out the attack is to implement an algorithm that will make it harder for a coin to be generated if the previous transactions of a party happened with an identical user. Quickly this algorithm can converge on the brute force search.

    A supply chain, or a regular market on the other hand is a necessity of the civilization. To detect a healthy transaction from an attack would utilize another key component of a barcode: the information embedded in it. A barcode is not necessarily unique, and contains information on it that pertains to the manufacturing country, company, type of product etc. A supply operation is one directional, that is the supplier keeps on sending the same material to the purchaser.

    Repeated transactions between two parties would then be allowed if one party continues to send the same or similar barcoded items, if and only if:

    1- The first barcoded product is used as a raw material or as a fabricated material in the manufacturing of a new product.
    2- The first barcoded product is consumed and is idled for trash.

    In case 1, the new product will be given a new barcode and its transactions will generate 1 coin as usual.
    In case 2, the each consumed product will be marked, and upon next consumption, a lower amount of coin will be generated for diminished returns.

    The barcode coin will support no consumption based economy, but a production based one.

    #511 Reply

    Hi Gandalf, what do you think about making a voice call to discuss this better? The idea would be that we will talk about how this exactly works, and I will take notes of the main points of the meeting and post the conclusions on here on the forum.

    Here is the software to use, completely encrypted and peer-to-peer. I trust this over any other chat app including Telegram, as it’s fully encrypted and peer-to-peer.

    Here is my TOX ID: 6396D9BD34786DC8319B2012141A26966A725A41C9E4D07BF77F53CDCC670B5754EE4F5E9100

    #512 Reply

    Added. Briar Project may be an alternative.

    #513 Reply

    14/04/2020 meeting minutes:

    Present: Keymaster, Gandalf

    Meeting points:

    • Barter system: The base of the value exchange on BeeChat must be a platform where users can reach agreements on exchanging assets and or services. The Barter system will operate on channel 8999. The way it works is the devices are pinging out a Private-key signed html document to all people within their network. This page will show what each device’s owner is offering to provide, and what he or she needs. If someone decides they are interested in something a device owner provides, they can contact them on the communications channel 7999.
    • IoT channel: Since BeeChat uses Diffie-Hellman ElGamal this means if a device says to another device “Hello”, the message will be different every single time. We can hash every encrypted message sent and received and store it. This way, we provide security against replay attacks on IoT. Channel will be 9997.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by 3iWEvuKEag.
    #516 Reply

    Barter System Mindmap

    #517 Reply

    Nicely done. What I’d like to add to the meeting notes is the layered structure of a crypto economy. At the most barebone level, a barter system can function if two sides trust each other and their anonymity can be protected by BeeChat’s encryption.

    Basically the layers of abstraction are:

    1. Barter System Through Encrypted Channels: Relies on mutual trust and physical accessibility, or logistics methods utilized by the parties themselves
    2. Barcoded Barter System: Enables the smart contract for transactions. Digitalized tracking of items, still barter based.
    3. Cryptocurrency: A currency that holds the barcoded items as collaterals. Useful when one of the parties does not possess items to facilitate a barter. Use case still not clear, but it could be minimized to establishing three-way contracts (barter-barter-barter or barter-logistics-barter) or supply chains. A debated idea is to use successful transactions for mining.

    #518 Reply

    2. Barcoded Barter System: Enables the smart contract for transactions. Digitalized tracking of items, still barter based.

    Could you maybe dive in a bit into detail here, as to how it might work in a real world example?
    – a lot of items that are 2nd hand or handmade don’t have barcodes
    – does every person need to have on their device a table (which undoubtedly may be several gigabytes) of every barcode and it’s equivalent object name?

    #519 Reply

    – a lot of items that are 2nd hand or handmade don’t have barcodes

    A barcode is just one practical way of representing a product with digits. In the absence of a barcode, a serial number, or even plaintext writings on the product could be used. For example, I’m holding a Star Wars pillow, and there is nothing enumerable on it except for a copyright and a trademark attachment sewed on it that reads “©&™Lucasfilm Ltd.” In this case, the key to enter the system would be the collection of ASCII values of it. It will be the job of the seller to communicate how this is encoded to the buyer.

    – does every person need to have on their device a table (which undoubtedly may be several gigabytes) of every barcode and it’s equivalent object name?

    No. The barcode is akin a hard key. Think of it like a handwritten crypto key that is transferred for decryption of a message. Once the sending of one item is complete, the sender will use the barcode as a private key, send over the public key and wait for the buyer to enter the barcode to decrypt the public key. Nothing is stored.

    #522 Reply

    Holy shit, the oil is gone. See you on the other side.

    #524 Reply

    Gandalf, as you said. Oil is gone. At this point in time, before we can set up our own currency I think we need to work on setting up Bitcoin Lightning payments as soon as possible. Please let me know your thoughts on this, I value your opinion.

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